Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

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cleanprophet
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cleanprophet » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:39 pm

GM-crowfan65 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:04 am
ok guys, have a discussion by all means but rude comments directed at each other are a no-go zone
I'm not bothered by that. As soon as people resort to personal insults, you know that they have plummeted to the bottom of their argument and bounced back up with a red face and a red a*se.

Hellbound81
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by Hellbound81 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:49 am

cleanprophet wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:37 pm
Woakes has been very inconsistent in this series. You don't even need to have cricketing knowledge to know that and see that. Stokes is a decent bowler but he is very inconsistent also. His economy in this series has been almost 4 an over. How can you build pressure or even maintain pressure when you are giving away 4 an over. There was one spell in particular between Woakes and Stokes where Australia scored over 70 from 10 overs. You call that "quality" do you? :roll:
As you should be well aware, I have been calling for Woakes and Stokes to have breaks from the very start due to the enormous World Cups they had. Both of them are not bowling top level simply because they are burnt out. This does not take away from the fact that they are quality world class players. Stokes already has the reputation, but I feel Woakes still does not get the credit he is due.

If you believe Stokes' economy rate is horrible, then also consider Broad's who is as fresh as you can get - 3.41.

On the other end a lot has been said about Starc's overall high economy rate, baring he has only had one match so far for various reasons, but that does not prevent him from being Australia's main strike bowler.
cleanprophet wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:37 pm
I'm not even going to offer a response to that because it is an utterly absurd stat to hang an argument on.
The runs difference stat is relevant because of could have, would have, should have.

Warner's sudden drop in form right after the World Cup is mysterious, he should have contributed far more. Who knows, perhaps without the comfort of Smith he may have taken more responsibility.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id ... ng-batsmen

Labuschagne should have been in the team from the start. His runs contribution would have been far more significant than what it already is.

Khawaja? That guy seriously should be far more consistent with his experience.

There can be calls that Harris is not contributing enough due to constantly being in and out of the team and not getting the fair opportunity to settle as an opener - a highly specialized role.

If someone like S. Marsh was in the team I am sure he would have made a fair contribution, even though I don't rate him much.

Without Smith and Warner it was not as if Australia suddenly became a poor team, they did have that hickup at the beginning, but they also had some impressive successes over the past year without them.

The point is that without Smith that 369 run difference would have been covered and it is far more relevant than what you choose to believe.
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cleanprophet
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cleanprophet » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:47 am

Hellbound81 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:49 am
As you should be well aware, I have been calling for Woakes and Stokes to have breaks from the very start due to the enormous World Cups they had. Both of them are not bowling top level simply because they are burnt out. This does not take away from the fact that they are quality world class players. Stokes already has the reputation, but I feel Woakes still does not get the credit he is due.

If you believe Stokes' economy rate is horrible, then also consider Broad's who is as fresh as you can get - 3.41.
There is no doubt that Woakes is a good bowler, especially in English conditions. But whether it is the World Cup or an underlying injury, he simply has not bowled well all summer. Even so, if England had Anderson fit and played Archer, there is no room for Woakes. The seam bowling attack should be Anderson, Broad, Archer and Stokes.

Broad's economy of 3.41? Two things:

1) That economy has been inflated by 3rd and 4th bowling spells after the change-up bowlers failed to back-up his opening effort and

2) Only Cummins has taken more wickets in the series.

If he had been backed up by the change-up bowlers, his economy would be lower and he would probably have more than 19 wickets.

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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by Hellbound81 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:05 am

Both Woakes and Stokes should both have been rested for the first Test, as controversial as that would have been, exactly what Australia did with Hazelwood and Starc, and Woakes should most definitely not have played against Ireland, there were still 4 other matches in the series to consider.

Archer was always set to get his chance in the series, despite having an injury after the World Cup, and there have been calls the whole series for Curran to play.

Overton is a good backup for Woakes, but he was now brought in from nowhere while at the same time also not getting the chance he really needs to settle for a consistent Test level performance.

Keep in mind that Wood and Stone are also out injured.

There is also the other Curran and the other Overton.

England honestly has plenty of depth and options in their bowling to not have to play the likes of Woakes and Stokes into the ground, particularly in English conditions.
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jabatito
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by jabatito » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:18 am

"....2) Only Cummins has taken more wickets in the series."
Broad has been very efficient once again, I have no idea how people were doubting his value. Okay, he is not a teenager anymore but he keeps showing ambition and desire in every delivery; perhaps the stamina not quite there at all times but Stokes took charge of that at Headingley for instance when the Aussies could have placed an even higher 4th innings target with ease.
However, if we look at the figures we have to look at the figures within all their context. Hazlewood did not play in the first Ashes Test and has taken a bag of wickets with a more than decent average. The Aussie bowling unit has been managed very well in this series, just keep in mind that no less than Starc was overlooked until Manchester. And decent bowlers like Peter Siddle or Pattinson have been added in specific matches. Cummins is the only exception to the rule, he keeps playing far too much Cricket in my opinion, he has played just about everything during the last 2-3 years.
True that he worked very hard on his body and how it copes with his bowling action; but we all know seam bowling inevitably leaves no prisoners with time.

To me, the key (and this was clearly seen in the only Test England won) keeps being England's batting vulnerabilities. To be precise, how the cookie easily crumbles time and again exposing your best bat to a relatively rested bowling unit. And how other promising players are also not delivering innings of any substance so all responsibility of keeping a good score ultimately falls on the AR or #7 #8, which is not ideal. Only when they are about to get done, they seem not to give their wickets away but one too many times this comes too late.
A team like England cannot simply lose all their top order bats so cheaply and it is happening too frequently. It seems like the team who always played towards getting a result in Test matches (Australia), whether for good or bad lately, has now been surpassed by England in this sense, especially after Cook departed
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by jabatito » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:24 am

"There is also the other Curran and the other Overton.
England honestly has plenty of depth and options in their bowling to not have to play the likes of Woakes and Stokes into the ground, particularly in English conditions."
Very true in my views, HB. Other than according to Anderson himself, the pitches should have been more biased?
More English, with some tea at 11am, bags of salt & vinegar chips at 13.40 and pints of bitter at 16.00? :think
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cleanprophet
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cleanprophet » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:32 am

jabatito wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:18 am
To me, the key (and this was clearly seen in the only Test England won) keeps being England's batting vulnerabilities.
But that is entirely the point I am making (and right now, on Sky Sports, the point that Rickey Ponting is making). Australia have kept the pressure on the English batters with the exception of that 2nd ball spell in the Headingly chase. This is why the English batting has struggled more than Australia's. England have not been able to do that.

Some interesting stats show that Smith averages about 35 when there is over 1.0 degree of lateral movement. In this series, England have had an average of 0.8 degree of lateral movement. Since 2016, Anderson bowls with an average 1.6 degree of lateral movement. Of course, these are general stats and they don't tell the whole story. But there can be no doubt that England not having the most successful swing bowler in Test cricket has been absolutely massive in this series.

Ponting just repeated the argument I made (and the propagandist BBC made a few days ago). Once Australia get through the opening bowling spell, they are able to do what the English batters cannot do after they get through their opening bowling spell. That, in nutshell, is where the series is decided.

cleanprophet
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cleanprophet » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:34 am

Australia win the toss again. Surprisingly they opted to bowl first (especially after a heavy workload a few days ago). There are overhead conditions but the Oval is almost always a bat first track.

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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by Hellbound81 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 am

England opting for 6 bowlers... :roll:
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by jabatito » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:10 am

cleanprophet wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:32 am
jabatito wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:18 am
To me, the key (and this was clearly seen in the only Test England won) keeps being England's batting vulnerabilities.
But that is entirely the point I am making (and right now, on Sky Sports, the point that Rickey Ponting is making). Australia have kept the pressure on the English batters with the exception of that 2nd ball spell in the Headingly chase. This is why the English batting has struggled more than Australia's. England have not been able to do that.
Some interesting stats show that Smith averages about 35 when there is over 1.0 degree of lateral movement. In this series, England have had an average of 0.8 degree of lateral movement. Since 2016, Anderson bowls with an average 1.6 degree of lateral movement. Of course, these are general stats and they don't tell the whole story. But there can be no doubt that England not having the most successful swing bowler in Test cricket has been absolutely massive in this series.
Ponting just repeated the argument I made (and the propagandist BBC made a few days ago). Once Australia get through the opening bowling spell, they are able to do what the English batters cannot do after they get through their opening bowling spell. That, in nutshell, is where the series is decided.
Bet you there are not many players in the world who will handle lateral movement over 1.0 degree, that happened in Leeds for instance within the 1st English and Australian innings (believe it was 1.3 - 1.2) and we all saw what happened there and what happened later when the pitch eased on which does not take an inch of merit to Stokes' brilliant display. And how about England's bats putting back that pressure on Oz bowlers? Stokes precisely did that during his first 100 balls of his rollercoaster innings at Headingley, blocking balls targeting stumps, and leaving, leaving, leaving...... No rash shots till there was no other way out, but he earned his chance, those first 100 balls were no luck at all. He simply tired the Aussie bowlers and then went in for the kill. Then it was the Aussie bowlers who could not handle the pressure, like Lyon for instance
Can anyone emulate that early patience and resistance today?
On the other hand, some Oz bowlers (and particularly Siddle) have learnt the wobbling ball hitting the seam technique, same bowlers 4 years ago have now bowled significantly better and that is also a fact. But England's batting failures, some of those within less than 30 overs cannot be simply faulted on pressure when there has been little more than 1 hour of play. Gosh, I remember Cook and his slow train running during the 1st hour and a half if he was batting during the 1st innings......
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cookie311993
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cookie311993 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:49 am

Why Siddle got picked is beyond me, he has let Root get in
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wolfberries
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by wolfberries » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:56 am

Hellbound81 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 am
England opting for 6 bowlers... :roll:
Stokes is injured Bowling wise.

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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by Hellbound81 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:15 am

cookie311993 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:49 am
Why Siddle got picked is beyond me, he has let Root get in
I am more surprised about Starc being dropped after taking 4 wickets.

I more expected Cummins to be rested with the load he had to carry over the past 3 months.
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cleanprophet
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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by cleanprophet » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:31 am

Hellbound81 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 am
England opting for 6 bowlers... :roll:
More of your astute cricketing knowledge I see :clap

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Re: Cricket Discussion - WC and Beyond

Post by Hellbound81 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 am

cleanprophet wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:31 am
More of your astute cricketing knowledge I see :clap
I try to inform and educate the ignorant, but if you regard Curran, Woakes, Leach, Archer and Broad (that is five, right?) as batsmen then I will be seriously concerned.

It is quite interesting how England loads up on more bowlers when their batting is the clear problem, but I guess why would you need batters when your bowler-batters can just do the job.
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